Beyond Survival Mode: How Cindy Chang Scaled from Solo Recruiter to Multi-Venture CEO

Entrepreneurship is a journey filled with unexpected turns, pivotal decisions, and powerful mindset shifts. In this episode of The Road to Seven, Shelagh sits down with Cindy Chang, founder of Evolve Consulting, to talk about the role of networking, the challenges of finding the right people, and the abundant mindset that has fueled her growth.

Cindy shares the story behind building her business, the rituals that keep her grounded, and her insights on scaling through people. She also introduces her exciting new venture, Dabbl’, which is designed to support working parents in balancing work and family life.

If you’ve ever wondered how to attract the right opportunities, invest in yourself, and create a business that supports your whole life — this conversation is one you won’t want to miss.

What you’ll learn in this episode:

• Why recruiting and people are the foundation of scaling a business.
• How to cultivate an abundant mindset around money and growth.
• Practical ways to approach networking with intention.
• The vision behind Cindy’s new venture, Dabbl’, supporting working parents.

Resources & Links:

Connect with Cindy Chang:

Website: https://www.evolveconsultingco.com/

Instagram: @evolve_consulting_co

Instagram: @fearlessentrepreneurs

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindyichang/

To work with me and make your next power move, visit:
https://theroadtoseven.com 

Stay Connected

Like what you’re hearing? Click here to follow on Apple Podcasts for more episodes to boost your Road to Seven today! I have more episodes with great tips and conversations with women that are revolutionizing the way we do business – don’t miss it! 

I would be really grateful if you left a review on iTunes so that others can find and boost their business too! Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” I’d also love to hear what your favourite part of this episode is in the comments below. Thank you!

Follow me! 

Instagram: @shelaghcummins  

Twitter: @shelaghcummins  

https://facebook.com/ShelaghCummins

https://linkedin.com/in/shelaghcummins

Transcript

Shelagh Cummins (00:00.928)
When I met my guest today, she just brought this energy to the conversation. There was a vibrancy that came out and innovation that came through. And it was just this like, my God, this woman's got it kind of feeling for me in our conversation. And that's exactly why I have her on our podcast today, because you need just to have a little bit of her just to infuse into your day, just to keep you going, to have that next step.

She's a connector, she's a visionary, she's a builder, she's a founder, she's all of the things. And so Cindy, thank you so much for joining us today.

Cindy Chang (00:38.012)
Thank you, Shelagh, for having me. That was so nice and I'm so honored to be here.

Shelagh Cummins (00:43.726)
Well, I'm thrilled that you are. know you've got a lot going on and I want to talk about it because I just am such a mad supporter of what you're building and what you're doing. I just want the world to know about it. So listen, I know you're in recruiting today. Evolve Consulting is a recruiting firm. I'm going to ask you to talk all about it. But first, give us a little bit of background, Cindy. Have you always been in recruiting?

Cindy Chang (01:07.216)
Yeah, so I believe at the core, recruiting has always been at the root of what I do. So I've done a little bit of everything from sales to marketing to leadership to management to whatever it is in corporate, you name it, I've probably done it. And within each of my roles, I've always had to recruit, right? I've always built teams. I've always really structured out what my department was going to look like.

And so whether I was actively working in a recruitment agency, recruiting, building schools and recruiting students, or just recruiting for building my teams, it was always a through line in my career. So I feel very lucky that I get to do that full time now as my career because it's always been my passion.

Shelagh Cummins (01:56.01)
Mm-hmm. I feel like you're a people person. are you... Would you describe yourself as an extrovert?

Cindy Chang (02:00.569)
Yes.

I would, 100%. I feel like we all have bit of extrovert and introvert on a spectrum in us, right? And I definitely tip more on the extrovert side.

I love people, people recharge me. Do I get tired? Yes, I do. but I just, I love being around people and, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but during COVID my husband is an ex, he's an introvert and you know, I was just driving him crazy. He was like, I think you need to go find your friends now because like you're driving me nuts. So I can definitely say I am an extrovert and I love people.

Shelagh Cummins (02:47.704)
Well, I think it's helped you. know, one of the things I'd love to talk about, you know, how you started Evolve, but you know, just on that theme first, one of the things that I think you've done really well is networking.

Cindy Chang (03:02.448)
Yes, networking is definitely a learned skill that I think that it takes a lot of practice and it's not natural. I think even for extroverts, it's not an easy thing, right? Because you go out, you're crafting your story, you're trying to find people who are aligned to you. And I think it takes time and I think it takes practice.

The first, when I first started networking, which was at the beginning of 2024, I just went, like I went to networking events three to four times every single week because I really wanted to master the craft of networking. There's multiple ways to business develop. I was not a type of person to sit there and pound the phones and just dial.

I really wanted to go out there and meet people because I knew that was my strength was put myself in front of people. I can talk them, you know, I can, have the gift of gap. Right. And so, but it took a lot of practice. Like it was very awkward when I first started networking and you know, just to get to know my story, what my offering was, it took a good six to eight months for me to perfect.

not perfect because I still feel like it's ongoing, but for me to catch a good rhythm in the networking game where it helped me define my service offering as well, right? But I love networking. I feel like networking is such a powerful tool that you don't see the results of it right away. It's not like you meet someone and then the next day they become your client.

Shelagh Cummins (04:26.968)
Yeah, yeah.

Cindy Chang (04:40.272)
Some of these people, I've developed relationships over the last year, year and a half or so, and they're all coming back now because they've met me, they've seen my brand, they've seen what I offer, and that slowly starts to build the trust. And it is one of the most powerful tools for entrepreneurs out there.

Shelagh Cummins (04:58.636)
Yeah, I agree. As long as you're good at it. I'm going to say that because I'm so I'm the polar opposite. I'm an introvert through and through. I'm very quiet. If we meet in person, I'm probably going to be more reserved than you think I'm going to be. I'm not someone who's going to work a room. so networking for me is going like meeting one cool person.

having a beautiful heart to heart and then I am usually out. Like I will rarely last the whole thing cause I've, my code is full. And so I love that you've got this whole art of networking that you bring in. And I think for you, it is such a powerful business growth tool. And for someone like me, I might as well just not go because I don't meet people. Like I probably will go to someone I know. But listen, take us back to the beginning. us, take us back to.

Cindy Chang (05:25.625)
Yep.

Cindy Chang (05:29.373)
Yeah.

Shelagh Cummins (05:50.53)
You know, the evolve consulting is launched. What was the catalyst? How did you do it? Tell us about that.

Cindy Chang (05:56.21)
Yeah.

Yeah, so it was really serendipitous how Evolve came to be. And it's a really fun story because I had been working in corporate for 20 plus years of my life, right? And during one of my jobs, I was a marketing manager at Elizabeth Arden Revlon.

I was slowly starting to change my personal mindset. I was just about to get married. I was about to try to have a family. And the job was very, very high stress at that time because they had gone through their acquisition with Revlon, which was just such a crazy acquisition. And so in my manifestations, I really dreamed about taking a step back in my career, which

is a totally different topic that women even have to feel like they have to take a step back in their career because they're ready to have a family. But I really felt like at that point, that's what my body and my health needed. And then I had a client approach me from the past and they were like, hey, we love what you do. We have a film school in Vancouver. And will you help us just like create structure and create like a recruitment process?

and can you help us grow our business? And so I was like, yeah, I mean, I do that for businesses, but I don't do it like I haven't gotten paid for it. I haven't gotten clients, but I'm pretty sure I can help you with it. So I signed on my first client with Evolve. This was September, 2018. And I signed up my first client. I didn't have a company name. I didn't have a registered business. I didn't know how much they were going to pay me.

Cindy Chang (07:45.96)
I just didn't know anything on the entrepreneurial side. I just knew I could help this client. And so I signed on that client. Then I had to work backwards in building a business. me and my husband were sitting there and I was like, well, what should we call this business? Like, should it be like Cindy consulting? Like, I don't know. And we decided to call it Evolve because we had no idea what my service offering was going to be. And we knew that it was going to evolve down the road.

Hence, that's why we called it Evolve Consulting. And that was six years ago. So I've always kept it on as a side hustle until 2023 when I was laid off from my corporate role out in Vancouver. And even then, I was still in denial. I was like, OK, I'm just going to have Evolve as a side time job, like a side hustle. And I'm going to just keep looking for a full time job.

And then I ended up making more money in 2023 with my side hustle than I would have in any full-time hustle. So that was a real awakening that I needed to take this full time and that the world needs to hear what I got to say.

Shelagh Cummins (08:49.614)
I love it.

Shelagh Cummins (08:54.286)
Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, signs are everywhere. And I love that you saw it and you took it. I think the name also speaks to you a little bit because you are someone in my mind who is in a constant state of growth and evolution. And, you know, I mean, from as simple as, you know, following your Instagram, you know, the way you show up, your hair, your look, where you're going, like it is a continual evolution.

which I think really serves somebody who is a fast action taker. Like if you were to do the same thing all day, every day, you'd be so bored. You'd be out of there.

Cindy Chang (09:35.88)
I think so too. I think so. I'm a mover and a shaker. am, you know, I think this year has been really, you know, it has been very introspective for me. And I tend to lean towards the things that make me happy and that feel aligned with my heart and shedding what doesn't serve me anymore just to keep my creativity going as an entrepreneur, right?

I thrive on change. I've always thrived on change. I think you're right. If I sat there for one day doing the exact same thing over and over again, I don't think my brain could take that. And some people are really good at it and I admire those people. I'm just like, I need to be on the go. It's what fuels me, you know?

Shelagh Cummins (10:24.322)
Yeah. What do you credit for the success of your first year?

Cindy Chang (10:30.696)
partially you. She is my business coach. like, honestly, there's a lot of different factors that I think attributed to the success of evolve. And it wasn't a straightforward journey. I can say that, right? I think anyone who is an entrepreneur and entrepreneurs who are listening to this is that you don't just wake up and say, I'm ready to start a business. And then it's like a straight path up, right?

Shelagh Cummins (10:33.816)
Yay!

Cindy Chang (10:59.932)
it took a lot of mental, preparation, a push, a confusion, you know, just lack of clarity and practicing and getting doors slammed in your face until something feels right. And until it starts to click. Right. And partially you were a big part of that journey too. I think in the height of my confusion, when I couldn't even develop my elevator pitch, right. Or when I create a dabble.

I couldn't come up with my pricing. Like everything needed to happen organically. And because I like to move so fast, I tend to always then punish myself in my mind when I'm not moving fast enough, right? And, you know, I invested in a business coach, which I think everyone should and must do because sometimes you just need a sounding board outside of your own head and entrepreneurship can be quite isolating and lonely.

And you you as my business coach, which I'm sure a lot of business coaches, you know, do out there are great at just being like, this is, this is good. Let's continue this. But like this, maybe we can leave on the side. We can parking lot that. And I think that was such a powerful investment to start to refine my messaging and to develop my business. And then, and then it's just really being unafraid to make mistakes. Right.

Shelagh Cummins (12:22.168)
Mm-hmm.

Cindy Chang (12:28.476)
think that at the beginning of your entrepreneurial journey, what we don't admit as much is how many mistakes that we're going to make, how much time we spend. I don't want to say waste. I want to say spend on going to the wrong places, going to the wrong events, going to the wrong clients, taking on the wrong clients to really learn what it is that your heart is after and how you be successful. And this year I've been working really, really hard on

staying in my lane and in my path. And I've never felt better and more confident in my career on the evolve side with working with clients that are beautiful and aligned and, you know, that are there on the same page with me.

Shelagh Cummins (13:14.72)
Mm-hmm. Well, I love that. And it is absolutely an honor and a privilege to be along with the journey. There's one thing I would like to bring up just sort of at this pivotal moment. One of the things that we worked on was your pricing. And one of the things that I so admired about your reaction when we saw and like the data just showed that we had to raise your rates.

Cindy Chang (13:28.54)
Yeah, my gosh.

Shelagh Cummins (13:42.198)
It was just like, okay, yeah, let's do it. And then next day you just gave that net, that new rate to the next person. They said yes and away we go, but you have a very positive relationship with money. You're not somebody who dabbles into the scarcity or into that. Ooh, I don't know. Is it too expensive? it too, can you tell us a little bit about how you cultivated that? I'll use the word abundant mindset.

because I don't know what other word to use, but how did you develop such a positive, healthy relationship with money?

Cindy Chang (14:09.17)
Right?

Cindy Chang (14:17.256)
I think that's a great question. I love the word abundance. That is my word of the year for 2025. And I think because I've seen it work in practice, right? I don't know it, like I didn't grow up wealthy. I didn't grow up with, I grew up in a very working class family where my family was very good. They were entrepreneurs. They were very good at providing for their family.

But my family never gave me the sense that we didn't have enough money or we didn't have, like we were in lack of money, right? And maybe it's ingrained in me from a very young age, but also I just think that I remember a moment when I was starting up Evolve where I was like, okay, I had closed my first client. I think I had made maybe two, $3,000 through that.

first client because I didn't know what to charge them. And I was like, that's easy. Like I'm getting a, I have a full time job and here I am just getting two or three extra thousand dollars as extra spending money. This is great, right? And I said, if I could find like four people like that, I'd be set with just extra spending money throughout the year, right? And I really wanted to cultivate, it was just very naturally in me to cultivate this.

mindset where I think that money is abundant. We see people spend all the time. We see people, you know, really spend money on what is valuable for them. That's really what sales is. And there's lots of money to go around for everybody in the world, right? And so I was just like, okay, well, if I put it out there, extra money is just extra money. Like, this is great.

right? And so I've seen it in practice, I've seen it come true. And an interesting story about abundance and how that really reinforced my abundance mindset was that in 2028, when I kicked off Evolve, my husband was laid off at that time from his job, I was pregnant with Olivia, my daughter.

Cindy Chang (16:32.136)
And I had taken a step back from Revlon into another job and taken a pay cut to do so because I wanted to focus on my health. so it was just the odds were stacked against us. I could have had a terrible pregnancy where I couldn't work anymore. My husband was laid off and illegal in the country because he was working for his permanent status to come in. And we could have been very, very stuck in a bad position.

And in that year, I had made enough supplemental extra income with Evolve just as a first year go to supplement both of our incomes just because I was like, hey, you know what? We got this. Don't worry. Like, there's lots of money to be made and we're going to be okay. And we were fine. We were completely fine. And I think mindset had a really big part to do with that. And that's why I constantly practice.

And this is what I tell people all the time on my social media, which is it takes practice. It doesn't just come to you naturally where I'm like, do I ever get fear? Of course I do. Do I ever want to like wake up feeling icky about feelings I need to shed? Of course I do. But you have to practice gratitude and you have to practice asking for what you want.

Shelagh Cummins (17:52.142)
How what does do you have like a morning routine? How do you incorporate that just on a soup to nuts discussion? How do you incorporate that into your day? What does it look like?

Cindy Chang (18:03.428)
Yeah, so I think it's kind of developing this year, which is very exciting. But it's so funny that you asked that because I was driving in the car today and one of the things that I want to do is full new new moon rituals, right? And so during the full moon, that's when we shed what we don't, what doesn't serve us. And during the new moon, which happens every single month, the full moon and the new moon, the new moon is when we ask for things that we want.

So whether that's hokey and hoo-hoo for people, whether that's something that people believe in, I think it's good practice. And it's almost like times that happen every month where it gives you a window of time to be able to write down what it is that you want, really say it to the universe or say it to your spiritual guides or whatever your belief system is. And then once a month, you write down.

and you actualize what doesn't serve you and what is feeling icky and burn it and dissolve it, right? So I think it's just mindset thinking, but I love to align it to the moons, because why not? Yeah.

Shelagh Cummins (19:02.04)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Why not? But you know, the other thing I want to pick up on is the idea that I think a lot of these rituals, we all know we should be doing. And I think some of us go through the motions, but we don't actually do it. So, you know, instead of just visioning what it is that you want, you're like, we'll actually write it out, put it on a piece of paper, because there's something about that action that anchors it.

Cindy Chang (19:11.719)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (19:23.656)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (19:30.61)
Mm-hmm.

Hello.

Shelagh Cummins (19:37.016)
deeper than just thinking about it. And then, you know, it's layering on the feelings that will come when we're in that place. I think a lot of people think about what they have to do, but they don't actually activate and put it into motion. And I think that that's, that's a great takeaway. Let's shift our conversation a little bit about the people side of business. I have for years talked about how

Cindy Chang (19:52.008)
on it.

Shelagh Cummins (20:02.638)
You know, one of the hardest parts about scaling is not putting in the infrastructure, but it's about finding the right people to get on your team. You've created this beautiful, unique, I don't want to call it a process, but you you're tapping into a very unique market. Tell us a little bit about how you're as Evolve Consulting differentiating the hiring process, which makes it better and easier for small business owners.

Cindy Chang (20:09.735)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (20:31.782)
Yeah, absolutely. So what I've been talking to my clients a lot about lately is building the blueprint for your business, right? And what happens is no one would ever start by building a house by just taking wood, nails, hammer and going at her. You typically go and you design a blueprint. You kind of figure out how it is that you want to grow. But when we grow a business, that's what tends to happen, right? You start your business.

you're overwhelmed. So you hire people. So you grab the wood, you grab the nails and you just start hammering. And then as you're growing, you know that that's not sustainable. So I have a couple of clients that I even have on board right now where I'm helping them re architecture their business to be able to, you know, take away all of the wood pieces again and build the blueprint so that it sets them up for success and growth. Right. And that's been really,

poignant in helping small businesses because they've had their business for five or six years. They're in a growth mode. They're doing really, really well. But one person who has been with them for five years have all of a sudden left and the whole organization crumbles or they don't know how to replace that position because Sally there wore seven different hats and how do we fill seven different hats, right? And so it's really about helping clients break down the architecture of what it is that they need in their business.

and then helping them hire and rebuild for growth. That has been really, really powerful. I also find that when clients are in a growth stage, maybe sometimes they don't need to hire full-time. Maybe sometimes they just need to hire part-time. And so our service offerings are flexible enough to be able to offer both to them.

Shelagh Cummins (22:19.182)
Yeah, I love that. And your Rolodex of potential people is also quite unique.

Cindy Chang (22:26.152)
Yes, yeah. So I love working with the candidates that I do. I tend to attract the candidates that are very aligned with my values and my clients' values. We're all in this like really great value trifecta is what I call it. And you know, I have high standards for the talent that I work with. And if you are

like you know aligned in terms of communication, your heart-ledness, you know that you want growth, you want boundaries, you want work-life balance, like those are the type of clients that I attract and those are the type of candidates that I tend to attract as well.

Shelagh Cummins (23:03.724)
Yeah, I love that. Listen, I've got two more questions, then I'm going to let you go. My second question is a bit of a longer one, so let me ask the first one first and let's leave some time and space for the second. The first question is, what do you know now, Cindy, that you wished you knew when you started?

Cindy Chang (23:08.274)
I'm

Cindy Chang (23:21.25)
my gosh, everything. I feel like there are there's just so many things that entrepreneurs have to go through to understand what their business is like. And that's just the necessary evil of building a business. What I had known, honestly, what I had wish I'd known earlier was to make the investment in business coaching sooner. Right? It's like,

Why go through the struggle when you can have someone who can help you through the journey and a community that supports you as well? I did have the community because I'm an extrovert. I sought out community really fast, but the investment piece was always something, especially for A type personalities like myself. It's hard to admit that you need external help, right? And I thought that was one of the best investments that an entrepreneur can make early on in their business.

Shelagh Cummins (24:19.214)
Yeah, I agree. mean, I give full credit to all of my business coaches. You know, the first one, my very first one back in 2000. Oh my God, dare I say 2007 took what I was doing unsuccessfully, by the way, and just shifted everything. And, you know, her very first thing for me was to just book 40 sales calls. And I was like, Oh my God, I can't do it. And I did.

Cindy Chang (24:32.188)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (24:48.701)
Yeah.

Shelagh Cummins (24:48.908)
you know, which is amazing. So she knew something I didn't know, but I was open to the process and I booked 40 and like the first one, you know, had it super clunky, second clunky. Everybody was a no, no, no, no, no, no until like number 27, you know? And, and it allowed me to just fine tune that piece. Cause she knew, she knew that I had something really good.

Cindy Chang (25:05.936)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (25:15.911)
Yeah.

Shelagh Cummins (25:16.054)
and that I was good at what I was doing, but that selling it was my biggest block. And so we just cut it down. And I wouldn't have been able to, I give her full credit. I wouldn't be where I am without her. The other thing that I've, one I've been heavily, heavily coached on is two concepts. One of there's more than enough people for all of us.

Cindy Chang (25:24.103)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (25:38.61)
Yeah.

Shelagh Cummins (25:39.202)
There are more than enough clients out there for all of us. It's just our job to go and connect and attract with them. Something you do through networking, I do through speaking, and it works very well. And then the second one is that the right clients always come in at the right time. And if you put those three things together, that has probably been the most powerful pieces, plus the infrastructure and the tips and tricks. So I'm with you on the business coaching is what I'm saying.

Cindy Chang (25:53.648)
Yeah, agreed.

Cindy Chang (26:06.428)
Yes.

Shelagh Cummins (26:07.758)
Okay, final question. I'm kind of planning it here because I am so freaking excited about what's next for you and what you're growing. So my final question is, tell us where you're going and evolving into, and I'm hoping that you'll talk about DAPL.

Cindy Chang (26:16.593)
Holy.

Cindy Chang (26:25.596)
Yes, okay. feel like I have two kids, right? So my, and I have one human child and two business babies. Evolve is my more mature teenager, the young adult child. She's really coming into her own. She's really finding her groove, finding her identity. And we are so, so proud of her. Where she's launching off to university, ready to,

Shelagh Cummins (26:50.508)
Ha ha!

Cindy Chang (26:51.576)
make her way in the world, right? And here I am building this baby this year. Its name is Dabble because I really, in my networking, and this is where networking can be really powerful because you're keeping your pulse on what the market needs. And the stories that I was hearing time and time again was

moms leaving corporate because we just didn't fit into the traditional Monday to Friday, nine to five model that was built for our grandfathers specifically, right? And so here I was talking to hundreds, if not thousands of women where they're like, you know, I, I, I've just left my job. I have three kids.

I just, it just didn't make sense for me to work anymore, yet I have this amazing skill of bookkeeping, marketing, admin, sales, you know, whatever it is, I have the skill to offer, yet I just can't do a Monday to Friday, nine to five. And then in my midst of networking, I was also meeting with a lot of small to medium sized business owners who needed to hire. They were like so much in the weeds, they can't get out of the weeds.

They need to focus on strategy, but they're just boggled down on the day-to-day work. So I had this light bulb moment in December of 2024. I think it was likely through one of our coaching sessions, Shelagh, where we were talking and we were like, this is it. Like, that's the business model. We have a talent marketplace of women who are fully corporate.

trained, ready to go, but just can't work full time, and small to medium-sized businesses that just need to grow, that just need to take the heavy lifting off, but don't want to hire full time. And so why don't we put those two together and see magic happen? And so far this year,

Cindy Chang (28:50.086)
that has happened. are building the community and dabble of parents and you know it's mostly moms but we have some dads in there too and we're okay with that. And we love our dads too, we love our stay at home dads but really moms who are really eager to work, really eager to make an impact, know wanting to subsidize some income or even just come up with

additional income for their family, but want to do it on their terms while they're raising their kids. And so it's been a really beautiful synergy. As I'm building this toddler, like, you know, there's a lot of growth to be had down the road. We're going to build a platform. We're going to build a community. There's going to be events. There are going to be some really big plans. Lots of potential investors that are interested in this project because it's one that

we just need in this world. Canada isn't lacking talent skills. Like we are lacking flexibility and a creative way to think about jobs and that's what Dabble will aim to change.

Shelagh Cummins (29:57.804)
Yeah. And I, and I think that I am such a massive supporter and, you know, hope to be a backer or at least a lender behind what you're building. because it is, you know, I talk about it as a life fuel business, you know, it's not lifestyle and that it's haphazard. make a couple bucks here and there. Women build businesses that fuel their life for revenue, for time management and time calendaring for impact. It's a life fuel business. And.

Cindy Chang (30:18.28)
Yeah.

Cindy Chang (30:25.768)
Mm-hmm.

Shelagh Cummins (30:26.99)
I agree with you. think that the Canadian business community is built for men because that's where it came from. And yet, you know, the times are changing and it's time for things to evolve and grow and expand. And it's one of the reasons why I'm so behind what you're building with Dabble. It is the way of the future.

Cindy Chang (30:32.562)
Mm-hmm.

Cindy Chang (30:51.858)
And can I say one more thing too, and thank you for that because it's something that I am particularly passionate about. Having been a mom in corporate, you never feel just right, right? You always feel guilty if your child is sick, like it just, never matches. And one of the reasons why I know this will work, Shelagh, is I built it into my own business. That's how I built Evolve, right?

I hire moms, some of them are moms, some of them are not moms, but I hire people fractionally to achieve a common goal and not towards the time that I pay them to work within a certain parameter. And you see the mentality shift of how when it's a purpose-led mission or when it's a goal-oriented job, people strive to do their best, you know?

And I would say I have the strongest team now than I've ever had in my past before, because people understand the mission, what it is that we're driving, and they don't have to work full time, and I don't have parameters on when they need to get stuff done by. We just need to achieve a certain goal and make sure clients are happy, and they are all with me on the same page.

Shelagh Cummins (32:05.377)
Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, that's that from your from your mouth to our listeners ears, if we could have more people building that, I think that the women entrepreneur economy and sort of community would look very different. Listen, I'm not going to keep you anymore. Thank you for that. I know that our listeners are going to want to connect with you. They're going to want to follow you. They're going to want to learn more from you. Where should we be sending them, Cindy?

Cindy Chang (32:31.12)
Yeah, I am very accessible as everybody knows. I'm on Instagram at Evolve Consulting Co. People can find me on LinkedIn, Cindy Chang or Evolve Consulting Co. And I also have my podcast Fearless Entrepreneurs where I talk to Canadian entrepreneurs and get to know their business and how they grow teams as well. And so people can connect with me anywhere there and I'm very accessible and happy to share any.

any info with people.

Shelagh Cummins (33:01.602)
Love it. We'll put all of those links in the show notes. Cindy, thank you for your time today. I know this is not our last conversation. Pleasure. We'll see you next time.

Cindy Chang (33:08.348)
Thank you, Shelagh.